This is a post many of you have been asking me to write for a long time. Often I get questions about how my relationships typically work and look. My day in the life posts tend to be popular, so it’s time to get back into my personal life.
I’m going to be using a lot of terms in this post, so if you don’t know what things like “LSNFTE or “MLTR” mean, go to the glossary right now and keep it handy, or else you will be very confused.
Many of you have asked questions such as:
- How long on average do you “keep” your women?
- How long is it usually before a woman asks for commitment?
- How long does it take for a LSNFTE to come back?
- How long do you typically know these women, even if you include nexts and LSFNTEs?
To answer these questions, for the first time I’m going to describe the “average, typical” MLTR and FB relationship I have. This will be fun.
Before I get into that, let’s cover a few bases first.
- My women are either FBs or MLTRs, so that’s what I will be discussing today. Make very sure you understand the difference before reading this post, or again you’ll be very confused. The third and final level of open relationship is OLTR (which is the open relationship version of “serious girlfriend” or “wife”), but I have not actually done that yet (though over the years one or two women have gotten very close, almost like a “de facto” OLTR). I would love to have an OLTR someday, but my standards are a little high, and I’m having a good time with the status quo as you might imagine, so I’m in no rush.
- I am not going to give you detailed relationship techniques here. I’m just going to describe how my relationships typically look. If you want step-by-step techniques on how I (and many other men) actually do this stuff, you need to go here and order my ebook on open relationships. That book will walk you though the entire process step-by-step, including the four phases of any nonmonogamous relationship that you must take a woman through in order for her to be “okay” with everything. That ebook is the most comprehensive one I’ve ever written, and there is a 100% lifetime guarantee on everything I sell, so there’s no reason not to get it if you’re interested in building relationships like this.
Okay, here we go!
The Type of Woman
Most women I meet through online dating, though not all. Most women I date are between the ages of 18 to 27, though I do love older women and happily date women in their 30s and 40s just as long as I meet them through my social circle instead of cold approach. (My favorite woman right now is 39 years old.) This is because with open relationships older women are wonderful, but during the pre-sex “dating” phase older women are complete nightmares. I’ve discussed this before.
Beyond some general physical attributes, I really don’t have a “type”. I have dated women in long-term (i.e. many years) open relationships who were young dumb bimbos, but also women over 30 and over 40, senior vice presidents, attorneys, teachers, accountants, and other successful types. Dumb, smart, tall, short, feminine, tomboy, old, young, you name the type of woman, and I’ve probably had that type in an open relationship, either as an FB, MLTR, or very serious MLTR.
The Relationship Begins
As most of you already know, I usually have a 60 minute first date where I spend $0 – $14, then have a second “date” where the woman comes to my house and we have sex. I don’t consider her in an actual “relationship” with me until we’ve had sex twice on two separate occasions. The second lay is where you move out of “game” or “pickup” or “dating” and into “relationship game” or “relationship management“.
Dating/seduction/game and relationship management are two completely different skill sets. Sadly, most men in the seduction community / manosphere who are very good at one tend to be very bad at the other. Both skills are critical to a long-term happy life for a man, not just one or the other. But I digress.
My goal is to have a long-lasting (open) relationship with every woman I have sex with. I do not do one night stands and never have. I don’t see the point. Every woman I have sex with I want to be having sex with for the rest of my life. That is a literal statement, not a joke, and not an exaggeration. From the very first minute of the first date with her, unless she’s a complete bitch, I view her as a woman I will be having sex with, off and on, for the rest of my life.
I’ve been doing this for almost seven years now, and so far this has been proven to be true. There are women whom I started dating when they were 18 or 19 years old who are now in their mid-twenties and still in my life, just like there are women I started dating when they were in their mid-thirties who are now in their early-forties (like me) who are still in my life. I love women.
When I start a relationship with a new woman, I already know this. So while I don’t behave like a beta male Poindexter, I also don’t behave like Mr. One Night Stand Player Guy. That’s not who I am. I instead behave like Mr. Steady Alpha Male. My open relationship EFA begins on the very first minute of the first date. My frame is:
“I will love you forever and be in your life forever. But you will never control me.”
After having sex with her for two or three weeks, I now have to categorize her as either an FB, MLTR, or OLTR candidate. Notice I said OLTR candidate, not OLTR. No woman qualifies for OLTR unless she’s gone at least six months, preferably a year with me with virtually zero drama and jealousy, and on top of that I have to really like her or (love her). Too many guys out there will start dating a woman and instantly make her an OLTR. Wrong. OLTR is a status a woman must qualify for and it takes a very long time.
FB and MLTR relationships are different from each other, so I’ll describe each one separately.
My Typical FB Relationship
Per my usual rules, I will not see an FB more than once a week. FBs I tend to see less frequently than MTLRs, often by their choice, so seeing an FB as often as once a week is unusual. Usually it ends up being 2-3 times a month or less. FBs never spend the night at my house and I virtually never take an FB out on a “date”, and even if we do, she’s paying for her half. “Dating” is for MLTRs, not FBs!
Despite this, I treat FBs very nicely. I do them favors (when convenient) and give them advice when they ask. With my older (over 30 or 40) FBs, we are close friends. With my younger women FBs, I am a resource and source of stability and friendly support (but not financial support; that’s beta males’ job).
I am extremely discreet and don’t announce them in my life at all, unless they ask me to do so. When a woman is cheating on a boyfriend (which is very common) or a husband (less common but it has happened), I am very discreet, unlike most other men, and this is appreciated.
Women are smart. They get the “point” that they’re an FB very quickly. There’s never a conversation about this and it’s never actually stated.
Of course, I never give FBs drama, never tell them what to do, never argue with them, and it’s always fun times when we’re together. For these reasons, most FBs stick around for quite a long time. More on this in a minute.
LSNFTEs from FBs are more common than with MLTRs, since every woman eventually gets a boyfriend. Luckily for me, these boyfriends (or husbands if they marry) are either boring beta males or demanding, high-drama Needy Alpha 1.0s. So the woman eventually dumps these guys and resumes with me. I’ve had some FBs “come back” to me like this as many as six or seven times(!).
The great thing about FBs is that I can be very explicit about talking about other women in my life, and they never get jealous. This is nice. They also never demand “commitment”, exclusivity, or monogamy. They know they’re FBs and they know demanding these things would be pointless.
A small handful of my long-term FBs have become some of my closest, trusted friends. Even if they end up moving to other cities we still often stay in touch (and have sex if one of us is visiting the city of the other).
So although FBs aren’t nearly as romantic and emotional and “deep” as MLTRs, they are extremely enjoyable and very rewarding.
My Typical MLTR Relationship
MLTR relationships are where I do actually care in a very strong romantic way for the woman. While she’s not at the OLTR level yet, we are actually “dating” and there is great affection and possibly even love between us. As a result, MLTRs are much more deep than FBs but also more complicated.
I usually have a good feel for whether or not a woman is going to be an MLTR by the third date or so (which in my world is after we’ve had sex at least once). Sometimes I’m wrong, and in these unusual cases I simply downgrade them to FBs when I realize my error. And in some very odd cases, I will actually upgrade an FB to MLTR level if she really steps up and proves herself to be an amazing woman. These downgrading / upgrading cases are rare but they certainly have happened.
So I leap happily into a new MLTR relationship with her and enjoy the powerful NRE that her and I usually experience for the first several months. Just like with the FBs, I will only see her once a week. Unlike FBs, I will happily let her spend the night with me in my bed, take her out on dates (though not expensive ones), cuddle after sex, and spend a lot of quality time with her. That means she might come over on a Tuesday, spend all day with me, spend the night, spend all day Wednesday with me, and then go back to her place (and then I make sure to not see her again until the following Tuesday…the once a week rule is unbreakable unless she graduates to OLTR).
During the first several months I do not talk about our relationship at all. I do not ask her any questions about it, and I will dodge any questions she gives me. Questions like “Where is this going?” or “What am I to you?” or “Are you still having sex with other girls?” get nothing out of me except a snort and a smartass comment, and then I change the subject. This works for about three to six months. Most women are sensitive about looking like a needy bitch, so they don’t press it. This is especially true with women age 22 to 37. (The very young girls and the over-age-37s tend to get a little more bitchy or whiny faster regarding “where the relationship is going”, but this is a generalization that isn’t always true.)
At about the five-month mark or so (on average), she will finally NEED to have her relationship questions answered. Dodging questions won’t work any more. At this point she’s either in love with me or very close to it, and she needs answers. She knows damn well I’m fucking other women even though I have not verbalized it, and needs to know where she stands in my future.
That’s when we have The Talk. This is where I finally verbalize everything. The Talk is a big subject that I cover in the ebook, but the abbreviated version is me saying, in very nice and caring way:
“I love being with you, and I want to stay with you. I want to be in your life forever. But I will never, ever be sexually monogamous. Ever. Even if we get married or live together down the road, I will still be discreetly getting something on the side. If that’s unacceptable to you and you need to leave me because of it, I’ll be very sad, but I’ll understand and I’ll let you go. I hope you stay with me, because I want to stay with you, but you have to make your own decisions.”
What usually happens is that she cries for a little bit and says, “I don’t know. I’ll have to think about it.” Then several days later, I see her again, and the relationship resumes. Sometimes they say nothing about the conversation and just resume like nothing ever happened. Other times they will come back with some “rules”. Such as, “That’s fine as long as you use condoms on other women” or whatever.
Since I already do that, those bases are already covered. I use condoms, have never gotten a woman pregnant on accident in my entire life, get tested for every STD in the universe three times a year, and will often show my MLTRs my clean test results. Open/poly relationships only work if both adults are sexually responsible, and I make sure to do my part. She must also, or else she gets nexted or downgraded to FB.
Later MLTR Phases
After The Talk, it’s pretty smooth sailing for another 18 months to two years on average. I stay strong with all the usual Blackdragon relationship rules: I only see her once a week, still never tell her what to do, never get jealous if she fucks other guys, avoid big conversations about “the relationship”, make her cum every time we have sex (preferably many times), etc, etc.
Occasionally, though rarely, she will throw a little drama at me. I probably get less than 5% of the drama from a woman that monogamous men have, but my women are still females, so a little drama occasionally is unavoidable. No problem. If she gives me any drama that lasts longer than about 20 seconds, she’ll get an instant soft next for three to seven days. After one or two of those, she quickly learns that she should not give me drama if she wants my time and attention. (One younger woman I was dating a few years ago told me, “No, I’m not going to yell at you. You’ll that ‘thing’ again where you don’t talk to me for a week.”) Soft nexts are by far the most effective relationship tool in an Alpha’s toolbox.
What is the usual topic of her little drama spurts? In order of commonality, it’s usually one of these three things:
1. Random irrational bullshit because she had a bad day.
2. Complaints about how I don’t see her often enough. (This mostly comes from the much younger women.)
What about drama about how I “won’t commit”? Guess what? Women don’t give me drama about that. If they have a problem with that, they just leave and do a LSNFTE. (The only women who actually give me drama about not committing but stay anyway are Russian women…which is one of the reasons I’ve backed off on these kinds of women despite their beauty.)
Questions and Answers on Time Frames
Here are some additional answers to the questions I commonly get.
Do your women have sex with other men while they’re dating you?
It’s about 50/50. 50% do, 50% do not. However even if she does, it will not be consistent. She will go through “phases” where she’ll fuck one other guy (if she’s over age 26) or several other guys (if she’s 26 or under), but these phases will be temporary. Women are not in constant horny mode like men are. I will always be having sex with other women, but she will only sometimes be having sex with other guys, and that’s if she’s in that particular 50%.
The other 50% of women don’t have sex with other men at all. They either aren’t comfortable doing it or they’re bisexual and play around with other women instead (which makes for some fun threesomes).
How long does the typical relationship last before they leave you because they want monogamy?
On average, the typical serious MLTR I have lasts about two to three years before the first LSNFTE. Then she’ll go away, fart around with some betas and Alpha 1.0s, get bored or angry, and come back to me. The longest consistent MLTR I’ve had lasted about four and a half years. The longest inconsistent MLTR I’ve had has lasted over six years.
Not surprisingly, FBs will LSNFTE me much faster than MLTRs. Many last under a year. However! FBs come back to me more times and more often than MLTRs do, and this is a huge benefit. Because of this, I have many FBs who have been in my life five, six, and almost seven years, albeit inconsistently. An FB will LSNFTE you faster but will often return faster and more times. Contrast this to an MLTR, who will generally stay with you much longer, but when she leaves you, will be gone for much longer.
How often do women come back to you after they leave you?
My return rate for women who leave me is 94.4% the last time I calculated it. That means that 94.4% of women who leave me or LSNFTE me because they want a monogamous relationship eventually come back to me and resume the relationship. Sometimes it’s because they contact me out of the blue, other times it’s because I contact them after many months of radio silence (it’s about 50 /50).
Regardless of monogamy’s alluring siren’s song, after being in a freedom-based, perpetually happy, low-drama relationship with an Alpha 2.0, it’s hard for a woman to put up with the boredom of being with a beta male or the restrictions and drama of being with a Needy Alpha 1.0. The proof is in my numbers: 94.4%. And that includes women who move in with other men, women who marry other men (and then get divorced) and women who have babies with other men.
And frankly, that 5.6% of women who have never come back is mostly represented by A) women who move very far away or B) much older women (age 45+) who get married (because as I’ve explained before, divorce and infidelity rates begin to seriously drop with women as they approach age 50 and lose estrogen).
How long do the LSNFTEs last before the women come back?
I recently calculated that my average LSNFTE is 15 to 19 months depending on how you do the math. My longest LSNFTE (so far) was 3.5 years. My shortest was 2 weeks.
Do women LSNFTE you multiple times? I.E. break up with you, come back, then later break up with you again, and come back again?
Yes, that does happen. It’s more likely to happen with the younger women, and more likely to happen with FBs (though it has happened with MTLRs too).
For example, one of my women is a 20 year-old, and she’s an FB but a strong one. She has been in my life exactly a year and has LSNFTEed me and come back three times already, all three times with different boyfriends. (All three cheated on her. You’d think eventually women would get the point about men not being monogamous, but most don’t.)
How many times do women come back?
With FBs, multiple times over a long period.
With MLTRs, it’s usually one to three times before they finally leave and “never” return, though there’s a reason the word “never” is in quotes. It really should be “not yet”. I’ve only been doing this about seven years, and plan to be doing this for the next 30 or 40 years (even after I get an OLTR; that just means the returning side-women will have to be FBs at that point). I expect to re-acquire some of those “nevers” over time. Check back with me in another 20 years and we’ll see if some of these “nevers” do indeed come back over. History shows that most of them will. (Remember, women hate monogamy just as much as men do, if not more so, even if their rhetoric says otherwise.)
And that’s a great end to this post…a re-iteration of my goal. I want to be having sex with these women, all these women, off-and-on, for the rest of my life. And with many of them, I will.